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Subject: AIList Digest   V3 #39
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AIList Digest            Sunday, 24 Mar 1985       Volume 3 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:
  Policy - Sexism in AI/AIList

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu 21 Mar 85 16:40:06-PST
From: Ken Laws <[email-masked]>
Subject: Sexism in AI

The response on this list-policy topic (Impure Mathematics/Humor/Rape/
Censorship/Sexism) clearly makes this special digest issue necessary.
A few readers have complained, however, that the discussion has already
been out of hand and that it is my job as moderator to reject such
submissions.  I therefore request that readers direct their further
replies to each other rather than to the list unless they introduce
AI-related issues that are not considered below.

The [email-masked] mailbox is still open for administrative
discussions, and copies of significant messages to that mailbox are
available to interested parties.  I will reply as I have time,
but will not necessarily answer messages cc'd as a courtesy.  It would
be impossible for me to agree with more than half of the opposing views
that have been expressed, but I am generally pleased with the quality
of the arguments that have been presented.

[My] official list policy is a composite of my own views and those that
I perceive the readership to hold, so your feedback on this and other
matters has been helpful in establishing digest policy.

                                        -- Ken Laws

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 12:58:53-PST
From: [email-masked]  (Jeff Robbins CSC/CS 523-4880)
Subject: Another comment on Polly Nomial

From:   MOLSON::S_ROGENMOSER  "Sharon Rogenmoser (CSC/CS-TSS) 523-4529
To:     LITE::ROBBINS

As far as the story goes, I agree with everyone that complained about it.
It wasn't funny.  And it wasn't just a play on mathematical terms.  It
very obviously associates Polly as a young woman at the beginning of
the story.  And the reason she had such a terrible thing happen to her
was that that she was feeling 'adventurous' that day, so wandered off
where she wasn't supposed to be.

The story very much parallels (no pun intended) what woman are told all
their lives.  And the moral of the story is 'don't allow them freedom'.
Don't you find it interesting that there was nothing mentioned about
Curly doing anything wrong.

I disagree with all the men that commented what a terrible thing censorship
was.  This story explains what a female should expect if she steps out
of the bounds society (or the laws of mathematics) has laid down for her,
just like most of our fairy tales do.

The message is very much there.  And as long as 'innocent' stories are
allowed to circulate without question, the message will be considered
true.

It scares me.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1985  11:15 EST
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Polly Nomial

   From: Ken Laws <Laws at SRI-AI.

   It may be true that if AIList sanctions such material, the material is
   more likely to be distributed through other channels having more
   effect on social behavior.  This is far fetched, but is essentially
   identical to the reasoning behind much of the "sexist language"
   controversy.

The effect that such jokes have on social behavior does not
necessarily have to be rape in order to be unacceptable.  If it
encourages the threat of rape or ridicule of women, which is not so
far fetched, it's unacceptable.

   Let's not get carried away, however.  Impure Mathematics >>is<< funny,
   or at least witty, regardless of whether it has to be banned for
   social reasons.

It was not so long ago that exclusively male clubs existed where women
were kept out by law, the threat of violence, or ridicule.  Such jokes
where part and parcel of keeping up the threat of rape or ridicule
which many women have experienced.  They are means of excluding women
from exclusively male domains, since mostly men enjoy these jokes and
most women are offended by them.  Some men are also threatened by
these kinds of jokes; if they don't find them funny by laughing
openly, their masculinity may be questioned.  I feel that AIList is no
place for such material because it gives the list the aura of an
exclusively male club.

Fanya Montalvo

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 16-Mar-85  6:20:58-GMT
From: GORDON JOLY (on ERCC DEC-10) <[email-masked]>
Subject: Top-Down AI.

The demise of  humour on the AI-Digest would  indeed be a sad event.
I see humour as one of the most functional and dynamic parts of the
list. This follows from the thesis of `The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'
by Robert Heinlein. In this fiction, the central character is `Mike'
who is a self-aware computer who is trying to  understand the human
race. His main  avenue of research is  a massive  analysis of jokes
and non-jokes.  (I hope the title of  the novel is not construed as
sexist!)

Gordon Joly

[email-masked]

[I recall a science fiction story in which humor disappeared from the
world once it was realized that jokes (as opposed to puns) were
just tools of aliens studying the transmission of information in our
species.  -- KIL]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 85 13:16:30 est
From: Elias Israel <[email-masked]>
Subject: Poly and good taste....

WARNING! Yet another two cents' worth on the same old topic follows:

Normally, I wouldn't say anything, but here at Brandeis we have been
grappling with this very subject. The "Women's Coalition" (a Brandeis group)
is sponsoring "Women's Month" and they have addressed this recently. The
point of contention seems to be about images of men and women in the
mainstream of society. Some people contend that images of men and women in
mainsteam societal activities now actively or passively advocate violence
against women. Not just pornography, about which there has always been this
complaint, but also TV, movies, magazines and, yes, even jokes have been
blamed as vehicles for these images.

The next point that some people make is that the existence of these images
promote violence against women by creating an atmosphere in which violence
against women is considered acceptable behaviour.

This last point is, to my mind, less clear than many people might think. I
see this question as a kind of chicken-and-egg  situation. Which came first:
violence against women, or depictions thereof?  I think this question has to
wait for some more conclusive evidence concerning the acquisition of
attitudes that promote violence against women. Where do these attitudes come
from?

I also have a problem thinking that humour might be a significant vehicle
for these images (assuming that they exist in any of the other cases,
something which seems likely to be true) Humour, by its nature, says "here's
a story that you should not take seriously".  I don't think that the author
of Poly Nomial intended to rationalize rape any more than a person might
rationalize infant killing by telling dead-baby jokes.  The funny part of
the Poly Nomial story was that you could use mathematical terms to describe
a piece of human behaviour. Alas, the behaviour depicted was also something
that is regarded as distasteful and wrong, at least by most responsible
adults. Herein lies the rub. Some people, when they read Poly Nomial, don't
separate the linguistic games from the act that the story depicted.
Understandably, this story can offend when the point of the story seems to
be the act of rape rather than the wordplay.

What to do, what to do?
I guess the only real solution is to be careful about what we post to the
net. There seems no reason in hurting people's sensibilities. At the same
time, however, I think when we get offended by something that comes across
the net, we should each try to be a little less sensitive. We should  try
"not to ascribe to maliciousness that which can be adequately explained by
ignorance" (quote stolen from the 4.2BSD fortune program :-).

In any case, maybe we should let Poly rest and get back to artificial
intelligence (ok, an occasional joke or two would be nice too :-).

======================================================================

Elias Israel
All opinions above are mine, but you know all that.....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 85 10:13 IST
From: Henry Nussbacher  <[email-masked]>
Subject: Humor

I would like to request that all seminar announcements no longer be posted
in AIlist.  These seminars are scheduled for places like Stanford and MIT
which I can't attend and therefore I find offensive.  You see, it is sort
of like rubbing my nose it, saying, "Ha ha, we have this great seminar and
we know you can't attend since you are located 5,000 miles away".  I find
this lack of sensitivity on the part of AIlist for people located in
foreign countries most offensive.

You may not find it offensive but I do!!

Henry Nussbacher
Rehovot, Israel

  [Please do not reply to this message until you have taken note
  of the subject line.  -- KIL]

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 21 Mar 1985 11:12-EST
From: mcc@Mitre-Bedford
Subject: Rape Jokes and Policy

What if the joke in question were a "nigger" joke, or that it were
about Paul E. Nomial, as Diana Bental suggested, who was raped or
sodomized by a homosexual?  What if Paul E. Nomial (or Polly
Nomial, for that matter) were a five year old and the story were
about sexual assault on a child?  Would it still be funny?  And if
not, why not?  Would Ken Laws have included them in AIList?  Would
David want any of these censored?  If so, why censor any of these
and not the original Polly Nomial?

As far as David thinking that censorship is a crime that is "far
worse" than rape because "it affects so many more" --that is
bullshit.  I have never been a victim of a rape, either, but the
statistics tell us that 50% or more of the women in the U.S. today
have been victims of rape or will be at some time in their lives.
Too many of my friends have been assaulted.  There is a good chance
that some of the women who read AIList, the wives, mothers,
daughters, sisters, friends, co-workers or girlfriends of many of
the men who read AIList have been or will be victims of rape.  In
addition, the fear of rape is debilitating, and it affects 100% of
the women in this country, and their friends, co-workers, husbands,
fathers, sons...  EVERYONE!!!

Regarding freedom and restriction thereof, the precautions we take
in an effort to avoid rape are frustratingly inconvenient and
inadaquate to say the least.  At school, we were ordered not to
EVER jog alone because women had been raped while jogging alone at
9:00 am, 4:30 pm, and (of course) at night.  I resent having to
think twice about taking a course that ends at 10:00 pm.  Sometimes
I can't even walk to my car after dark without wishing I had a can
of mace on hand.

And it bugs me that I can't even read AIList without being harassed.

Maryellen C. Costello
mcc@MITRE-BEDFORD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 85 08:46:20 mst
From: [email-masked] (Charlie Sorsby)
Subject: Re: Reply to Diana Bental

Your reply to Ms. Bental makes a lot of sense to me.  It seems to me that
there is all to much of a tendency among people to want to BAN anything
and everything that offends THEM.  The rationale seems to be that it is
only a "tiny" step from that which they want to ban  to some [to all or to
them] undesirable action by society, but it is a "huge" leap from banning
what they want  to banning the next logical item in the chain.

And, of course, there is the widely held belief that outlawing the
INSTRUMENT of an undesirable action rather than the action itself is
going to save us all from the action.  It doesn't matter to proponents
of this approach that the item banned may well have some perfectly
legitimate purpose for the majority of its users.  If the item is
banned, the activity will magically go away.  In the case of jokes, it
is only WORDS that they would have us ban to cause this magic.  I  am
well aware of the power of words, but this is ridiculous.

Charlie Sorsby
...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 85 13:52 EST
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: AIList Digest   V3 #37

Diana Bental's assessment of the polynominal joke and censoring
ramifcations is excellent.
Tom Sheehan

------------------------------

Date: Thu 21 Mar 85 12:13:37-PST
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Censoring Humor

The pious claims about censorship are misleading. Clearly, not every
thing should appear on a bboard. I can easily come up with something that
would be so offensive that the most liberal moderator would can it.
I find the Poly Nomial joke very offensive to me as a man. Since I believe
that there many others who find such pieces offensive, they should be kept
out of AIList. I see it as the moderators duty.

Moshe Vardi
CSLI, Stanford University

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 21-Mar-85 16:40:34-GMT
From: JANE HPS (on ERCC DEC-10) <[email-masked]>
Subject: Humour

Two points to add to the debate:

1.      I'm surprised that so many people dismiss humour so casually
        as light entertainment, when it can be a particularly good
        way of displaying power. Would the creator of Poly Nomial
        care to make a sexist joke if s/he were being interviewed
        by a woman for a much wanted job? And if the roles were
        reversed?

2.      I often find it illuminating, when looking at questions
        of sexism, to translate into another realm such as racism
        or religious prejudice, in which our sensitivity is not
        so dulled. I doubt whether clever tricks like the Poly Nomial
        story would be regarded as humorous if their context
        were something as ugly as apartheid or sending Jews to
        the gas chambers.

                                        Jane Hesketh

------------------------------

Date: 22 Mar 85 23:50:26 CST (Fri)
From: ihnp4!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-di!yali@Berkeley
Subject: Discussion of rape, jokes, censorship.

        I agree with Ken Laws that AILIST is probably
not the best forum to discuss such issues. However,
since he chose to include the original Polly Nomial
article in the digest, it is only fair that some follow-ups
criticising that article also be allowed to appear.
        I also agree with Diana Bental that articles such as
the one under discussion may encourage an acceptance of
attitudes that lead to rape (of women) being regarded
as the prerogative of a man. Moreover, I think that
the humour in such an article itself depends, to some
extent, upon the reader being able to identify with
such attitudes. After all, why is it that one almost
never sees (at least in mainstream N. American circles)
jokes whose humour is based on incidents of homosexual
rape of men by men? Would the readers of AILIST find
such a joke as funny as the Polly Nomial article?
If not, why not? Is it because such behaviour or humour
is not "normal"? Is it the case then that rape of
women by men is in some sense regarded as normal?
Or perhaps I should be more charitable. Perhaps it is
the case that such jokes are made in order to allow
us to sublimate our fear of heterosexual rape, which after all
is a rather common phenomenon in our society. That is,
perhaps we men are all really identifying ourselves with Polly Nomial,
the rape victim. Perhaps.

                        Yawar Ali
                        BNR,  Ottawa (Canada).
                        ihnp4!utzoo!bnr-vpa!bnr-di!yali

------------------------------

End of AIList Digest
********************